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Shaun Groves
We caught up with Shaun Groves at the 2005 GMA Week activities in Nashville...
MQ: Let's talk about your latest album. I noticed in our last interview, you were talking about how you were writing for it...and I just kind of got the idea, maybe I was wrong, but it seemed from your expression like you were grappling with it ...that this one was...
SG: It was hard.
MQ: ...different - yeah. So, I was going to ask you right off the bat, was this new record relatively harder than the previous ones - and maybe how so?
SG: Oh yeah. Well, the second record didn't do as well as the first, but it was still a record that I loved. To me, it's a better record than the first - from what I like. So, I think the hangup for me writing-wise for record three was going, "Ok, What I really like ... doesn't really do very well. What do I want to do? Do I want to do what I like 'cause I don't like sitting at home? I don't like wondering how I'm going to pay my bills. I don't like not getting the message out to people." It was real tough, you know? So, I went through a phase of trying to write songs that were very commercial. I went through a phase of trying to write songs that sounded like my first record. And then I just quit writing. I spent about six months not doing any writing. I took a job with my church as a pastor to post-high school young adults, which is a fancy way of saying 18 to 25-ish year old folks. So, I co-pastor that group. I don't do any music. I just do teaching, and we teach the Bible verse by verse. In that process I ran across the beatitudes - Matt. 5:1-12. Studying that and teaching that had a profound effect on how I view our faith itself. It simplified it for me. It changed the way that I view the world, world events, country, church, family, everything. It really changed a lot - sometimes minor tweaks, sometimes huge tweaks - to the way I view different aspects of life. Suddenly, I was inspired and there wasn't a question of, "Oh, is this commercial or not commercial? Is this what they're going to like ... or not like?" It just really - no joke - just fell out of me. It was really cool. This whole entire record...it just evolved very quickly. It was a year of nothing - and then all of a sudden - I was inspired by teaching this passage of scripture.
MQ: That answered my next question, which I was going to ask about how your teaching the Bible study had affected your writing towards this record. So, is it safe to say that this record is an outflow of that?
SG: Absolutely. I don't think we would have this record without the IKON Bible study. I don't think it would be here. Hangin' out with people younger than me. I say young people, but some of them are married and in their 20s, some are college students that are 18. But these people, hanging out with them afterwords and talking about these ideas - and the beatitudes, and taking our time with them and really teaching through it and wrestling with it, it helped me form those thoughts to when I sat down to write, they were already ready. So, yeah, it wouldn't happen without the IKON group.
MQ: I know we talked last time about the impact of relationships and how we want a quick fix - a top down approach - but it still comes down to relationships. Has the Bible study group reinforced those thoughts?
SG: It's changed my view of community, that sort of thing?
MQ: Yeah, that meeting people where they are instead of talking at them...
SG: Yeah, I think it's easy to get into the quickfix mode. You're an artist who stands on a stage and you talk to different people every night. It's harder to do that when you're with the same group of people every week in Bible study. So, you get to see the guy who shows up with a sex addiction - and wrestles with "What do I do with that?" and "How much do I trust you?" and you get to go with him to meetings and you get to see evolution of the process, the struggle - when he regresses, and when he makes progress. You celebrate the one, and mourn the other. Being there everyday makes it more human. It makes it more real. There is no quick fix. We're all at different levels of imperfection and getting toward perfection is not going to be quick. There is no movie or song that is going to right that. It's going to be a multitude of things coming out of the church to sanctify us.
MQ: On the new record, are there any songs that stand out for you?
SG: This record is hard for me to do that with because - I guess - since producing it, I'm close to every song. (laugh) It's hard for me to go, "I really like that one..." But, I could pick a couple, like "Bless the Lord". It's the only song that I've ever recorded that I didn't write. I've had people ask me, "Why did you do that?" (laugh) But, it said what I couldn't say. In teaching through the beatitudes, you get to the 'blessed are the pure of heart' and the 'pure of heart' when you go back through church history and how people have interpreted it, it has to do with your allegiance. Where is your allegiance? Is it to country? Is it to money? Is it to fame? Is it to comfort? Is it to denomination? Is it to anything else other than God. Is anything else competing with your allegiance to the kingdom of God? I think our allegiance was tested on September 11. These friends of mine are in an independent band "Among Thorns" and they were sitting in a tour bus and they saw the bombings happen. They saw the first tower fall...and then the second tower fall. They had the same reaction that I did, which is "How do I react?" Do I get angry? Do I give up? Do I pray? Do I curse? What do I do? It was so confusing for all of us. And their response was to write this song, "Bless the Lord". It has a powerful line in the chorus,
Bless the Lord, Let all that is within me, Bless the Lord. May kingdoms fall, May rulers crawl before your throne.
And that's not just, "Hey, we want the other guy to fall", it's "We're falling too"...that Jesus, the king of kings, is the king of presidents. He is the king of dictators. He is the king of all circumstances and that's where my allegiance goes. He is the only one that I'm allegiant to. That's a powerful song to me. They just said it in a way that I couldn't. I love it.
MQ: Any others?
SG: "What's Wrong With This World?" is probably the most fun song on the record (laugh) - and it shouldn't be. But, it kicks off the record. The record is in beatitude order. So, the first beatitude is "Blessed are the poor in spirit"...not really a fun theme, but the poor in spirit is recognizing that we're depraved - that what's in our heart is evil. There is nothing good in us. That's how Jesus starts His sermon and that's how we started the record. It ended up being a really fun song. I remember watching Larry King Live when Billy Graham was on his show soon after the Littleton Colorado shootings - where all these kids were slaughtered by their classmates - it was a horrible tragedy - and Larry King was asking the same question that I wanted to know: "Why?" So, Billy Graham - it took him a little while to collect his thoughts and give an answer - in that short amount of time I was raising my hand going, "Ooh, ask me!" You know? I have this list that the church has taught me to recite: "It's Marilyn Manson...it's MTV...it's the poor public schools...it's fathers never being there". It's this...it's that - all these things are what's wrong with the world - that's why this is happening. Billy Graham was so much smarter and wiser than me and he just paused and looked at the camera in the eye and said, "Look, here's why. There was this couple that was very much in love and God put them in a garden called Eden, and there was a tree there..." and he told the whole story of the fall of man and that's what's wrong with the world. When the problems of the world aren't out there somewhere - in need of a good boycott, or the right guy in the Whitehouse - the problems are in our heart. And that's how the record starts. This is a record about the heart because that's what's wrong with the world.
MQ: What do you hope people take away from this album?
SG: I hope it moves them to study the beatitudes on their own, and I hope that in doing so it moves them from a place of mere belief to discipleship. This is a record that hopefully moves people like you and me who hover around surrender (laugh) but never move beyond to righteousness. That's what we're supposed to be about. I hope it challenges us to be peacemakers - to be pure of heart - to be mercy showers, and in doing that we become so much like Christ that we are hated by the world in the way that He was. Blessed are those that are persecuted for righteousness. That's the goal.
MQ: What have you been listening to lately? Has it influenced this record any?
SG: I think a little bit. I don't really buy CDs. I'm an iTunes guy and so I download singles, you know, the free singles of the week that they always have on iTunes music shop. Most of them I throw away, but some of them I keep and find they're pretty good. I can't even tell you song titles but there are songs by Keane, 'The Killers', and Guster, and ColdPlay...of course U2's new stuff, Switchfoot's a big influence. I love Nichole Nordeman's lyrics. Patty Griffin is always a good place to go for inspiritation. So, yeah, I just keep a steady diet of current stuff...and try to stay current! (laughing)
MQ: How would you describe the sound of this album?
SG: It's plugged in. There are only two songs that I played acoustic guitar on, and one I played piano on. There are twelve tracks on the record, so that leaves nine songs with me and an electric guitar on. There's lots of guitar on it. There's lots of intensity to the songs. I wouldn't say that it's a rock record. It's a pop record that leans toward modern rock. There are still those intimate moments like "Two Cents" or "Abba, Father" from my previous records. There are still those moments - that are still very much a part of who I am - but maybe we take the rock side a little farther.
MQ: How do you deal with life on the road, and time away from family?
SG: I don't do a lot of it. It's by choice mostly - but there are times when it's not! (laughing) But yeah, at most, I will do ten shows in a month which isn't very much at home, and that would be fairly extreme. I'm too involved in my church and my family to be gone too much. I just think that I'm not created - I don't think any of us are created - to discern or communicate truth alone. It's a dangerous thing when we take artists and in an effort to become successful, we stick them on a bus for 200 days out of the year and expect them to be physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually healthy. It's just not gonna happen. We can't separate ourselves from community and continue to be effective ministers. So, even on the road, I try to take my co-pastor/brother-in-law with me and he keeps me accountable. He keeps my attitude in check and he reminds me that I'm not a big rock star when I start acting like one. And he's someone I can talk about the Bible with and lean on. So, that's the greatest assett to me right now on the road, is to have a best friend - who understands me and has known me for eleven years - to do it with me. It keeps me healthy when I do have to be away.
MQ: It seems like we put those in the public eye, whether they're singers or artists, and we put them on a pedestal and believe they are above the struggles - that they are better at dealing with the tough stuff - and because of the visual nature of the industry and the way it's packaged - it tends to put the focus on perfection. I just wondered if you had a perspective on that...
SG: Yeah, I agree with what you said. I sometimes wonder if it's the industry really doing anything wrong that makes me feel like it's focusing on perfection, or if it's just me. (laugh) Like if I'm just extra-sensitive to it because I know what a loser I am. So, I'm allergic to the nice album cover and the smiley face and the songs about happy things. Sometimes, probably to a fault, I may want to wallow in my imperfection a little too much. But I think there is a good balance there. I think we do need encouraging songs and smiles and happiness and joy - God did come to bring us joy - but I think that joy means much more when it's attached to a human being that couldn't experience joy without divine intervention. When it's attached to a bad day that we have every right to be bummed about, but here we are somehow keeping it together! That shows that God is present and that He is in us. So, yeah, I think there needs to be a balance there - absolutely. But nobody is ever balanced, you know? We pass through the middle on the way to the next extreme and may look balanced for about that long (snapping his fingers). I feel like this record is probably the most balanced - that there is definitely stuff to dance to and celebrate with and rejoice in but also there's a good dose of reality that we are imperfect people. That's why we need God and that's why He came.
MQ: What are you thankful for at this time in your life?
SG: I just had a little girl two weeks ago (04/2005) - my third child. I'm not getting a lot of sleep these days. (laughing) But I think it's made me a little dangerous this GMA week, because my head is probably the least here than it's ever been. And it's not in a 'missing the home' way but I held my daughter for a half hour last night while she was screaming and she eventually fell asleep in my arms and you look at this little person - this life that God gave you - and you know, I'm appreciative that you want to talk to me about my music ... but there are better things in life. And I hope my record sells but if it doesn't, "Gosh, look at what I'm holding in my hands!" This is an amazing gift that God has already given me and I think that God gave me kids so that I wouldn't take myself too seriously, or take this job too seriously. I'm thankful for that right now - that I have people back home that know who I really am and aren't really interested in how well I sing. (laugh)